Kitniot or Not?

So, can anyone who is familiar with Kosher laws and Hebrew terms tell me if this means what I think it means? Are these articles really saying that something certified Kosher for Passover and kitniot-free by a reliable organization like the OU, might still have certain corn derivatives in it?

I started looking into this after a commenter below said they reacted to K for P products, and then more after it seemed Baby E wasn't tolerating some of them well.

The "nishtaneh" loophole could be why Baby E seems to be reacting to some of the K for P products. I am pretty sure she's been reacting to the Kosher for Passover margarine and/or white baking chips, and probably some other things too.

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These articles from the OU website make it sound like the OU does certify some corn derivatives OU-P or Kosher for Passover if they are derived from certain fermentation processes:

"Another important issue regarding Passover is corn syrups. While corn syrups are from the legume family and accordingly by definition should not be acceptable for Passover, the OU does accept legume derivatives in the fermentation industry due to the extreme changes that happen during the fermentation, with the result that at the end of fermentation, the contents have completely changed. This only applies to legume derivatives, as the stricter nature of the prohibition on the “five grains” does not allow for similar acceptance.

The most common Passover applications for corn syrups are in fermentation products such as citric acid, microbial rennet, and MSG, among others. These corn syrups will be certified chametz-free, meaning that all ingredients, specifically the enzymes used in corn syrup manufacture, besides having the regular kosher requirements, are also kosher controlled to ensure that no derivatives of the five aforementioned grains are used."

I'm not sure whether these corn-derived products can be certified OU-P or if they would be labeled OU Chometz-free instead:

"The Orthodox Union certifies certain industrial products as “chometz-free.” This means that kitniyos (legumes) may be used as a raw material, although normally they are not used during Passover. These chometz-free certified products must meet very stringent criteria to convert the legumes or their derivatives from proscribed substances to acceptable ones. These changes include a complete chemical transformation from a sweet to sour taste. Chometzfree certification is granted only if there are no actual chometz-derived ingredients—namely no derivatives of wheat, rye, oats, barley or spelt—in the product."

". . . In order to maintain chometz-free certification on a product such as corn syrup, quality assurance personnel must constantly check that the right enzymes are received. Corn syrup/dextrose is then used to produce kosher for Passover citric acid, xantham gum, microbial rennet, etc."

"Now, xanthan gum bears absolutely no resemblance to corn syrup – it doesn’t taste like corn syrup or behave like corn syrup, and there is no plausible way that one could call it corn syrup. Is it, halachically, corn syrup? This question is relevant to Pesach, where Ashkenazim have a minhag to refrain from eating kitniyos including corn and many also refrain from eating corn-derivatives. . . .

Nevertheless there are Poskim who hold that as relates to Pesach, it is permissible to accept – and even certify – a kitniyos-based ingredient, like corn syrup, that was radically changed. Ashekanazim who refrain from eating kitniyos on Pesach do so merely because of a minhag, and these Poskim hold that as relates to a minhag one may even l’chatchilah accept such products as kosher (for Pesach). One famous example where this comes up is in Pesachdik diet soda. One sweetener used in diet soda is aspartame, which at least at some stages is made though the fermentation process, and most of the Pesachidk aspartame is made using corn syrup, based on the aforementioned line of reasoning.

Other Poskim hold that an ingredient can only properly be called nishtaneh if, before it was changed, the ingredient went through a stage where it was inedible—which is apparently true for musk. Since standard fermentation processes do not render the ingredient inedible, even a very dramatic change would not qualify as nishtaneh. Even this position would permit Pesachdik diet soda, b’dieved, because the kitniyos in such a context would be buttel. "

It sounds to me like Chometz-free corn syrup can be used to grow some items used in OU-P products:

"In recent decades, scientists have learnt to manipulate microorganisms to create and convert all types of enzymes and foods. This has had dramatic effects on the world of kashrus, including kitnios. What happens if one takes bland-tasting corn, and uses enzymes to liquefy and sweeten it – does the resulting corn syrup remain forbidden as kitnios? Is the halacha possibly more lenient if one takes the aforementioned corn syrup and uses enzymes to convert it to sour-tasting ascorbic acid?

These questions depend on a machlokes Rishonim cited in Mishnah Berurah 216:7 regarding the kashrus of musk – a fragrant byproduct of blood which is found in the abdominal gland of the male musk deer. Some Rishonim hold that since blood is non-kosher, musk is also forbidden, but others holds that once the blood is nishtaneh – changed – it loses its original identity and becomes an innocuous kosher liquid. Mishnah Berurah rules that as relates to issurim d’rabannan one may be lenient.

Accordingly, some hashgochos hold that since kitnios is merely a minhag (i.e. even less than an issur d’rabannan) one can be lenient and certify kitnios which was truly nishtaneh. In order to qualify as “nishtaneh” the kitnios must go through a significant change in taste; therefore in the cases noted above, they would certify the ascorbic acid due to the dramatic change in taste from sweet to sour but wouldn’t permit the corn syrup since it isn’t changed/nishtaneh “enough” from the corn which it came from. This rationale is the basis for some hashgachos’ certification and/or acceptance of certain productions of MSG, aspartame and xanthan gum for Pesach. Some argue that Mishnah Berurah’s ruling is limited to cases of b’dieved and doesn’t justify the l’chatchilah creation/certification of such an item, and others argue that nishtaneh may be limited to cases where the forbidden item becomes inedible in the middle of its conversion to the “new” item. We will see below that even those who take the strict position in this matter generally agree that foods created with these ingredients are b’dieved permitted on Pesach."

This is from the OK:

"Another ingredient we would like to discuss is Citric Acid. This is produced by fermenting crude sugars with Aspergillus Niger.

The above mentioned carbohydrates can be of wheat, corn or regular sugar source. If it comes from wheat of [sic] corn it would be problematic for Passover.

As Citric Acid is quite popular in the food industry - tens of thousands of tons are used annually - a source that would be Kosher for Passover is quite in demand.

For years the Rabbis have been lenient with the use of Citric Acid produced from corn. The severity of corn usage on Passover is much less than wheat usage which is strictly forbidden - even in the minutest amount - on Passover.

Since the Citric Acid is the result of a chemical changeover from the original corn some prominent Rabbis permitted its use on Passover. However, the trend recently has been to observe more stringently to the letter of the law so a demand has arisen for a 100% Kosher for Passover Citric Acid produced from sugar.

As a side note, alcohol fermented from corn is not accepted as a Kosher for Passover ingredient, as is Citric Acid, even though the chemical changeover is identical.

We, at the OK, have been successful, thank G-d, in helping make available a 100% Kosher for Passover Citric Acid from sugar. This comes from Sucromilles in Cali, Colombia (a Haarmann & Reimer affiliate) and is marketed by Haarmann & Reimer in the U.S.A.

. . . A bright point in Group 1 development is the removal of Citric Acid from Group 1 by one major Kashrus organization. We hope all other groups will move in their direction. "

Group 1 means the item is considered "intrinsically Kosher" and does not need special certification to be used. It sounds to me like they're saying most organizations have in the past and probably still do certify foods containing citric acid grown on corn as Kosher for Passover.

Here's a company that carries another citric acid grown on sugar cane, along with vanillin and a non-grain-based ascorbic acid, along with a number of other generally problematic ingredients grown on (to us) safer sources.

It does seem that, at least for some of the products generally produced using corn, there are viable alternatives. Now I just have to figure out which products do and don't use them.

I called last week to ask what the vinegar in the Manischewitz products is made from (apples are an issue for us) and what the citric acid, ascorbic acid and xanthan gum are grown on. The CS representative was going to check on it and get back to me, but I haven't heard back yet.

I also called Gefen this week to ask what their sour salt (citric acid) is grown on or derived from. They're supposed to be checking on it.

Streit's told me that their products made in the USA shouldn't contain any corn or soy, but they don't know for sure about the products they distribute that are made overseas.

I did also e-mail the OU to ask whether items containing corn-derived citric acid and xanthan gum could be labeled OU-P or if they would be marked "OU chametz free" instead, but haven't heard back yet.

I'm really afraid I may have wasted a lot of money (and I mean a lot) stocking up on Kosher for Passover foods we can't actually eat.